31 | No More Noise Toronto! (with Ingrid Buday)

Ingrid Buday founded "No More Noise Toronto!" after enduring a consistent and measurable increase in noise since 2019. She collects data by using noise meters and mapping the results from a public survey she calls "Not 311," where anyone can submit noise and location data. In this episode of Soundproofist, she describes some of the community organizing and data-collection strategies that got the attention of municipal government. Dr. Arline Bronzaft in New York City also joined us for this conversation.

Transcript

Cary (00:07):

This is episode 31 of Soundproofist and my name is Cary. Today we're going to talk with Ingrid Buday, the founder of an organization in Canada called "No More Noise Toronto". We were introduced by Dr. Arline Bronzaft in New York City, and Arline joined us for this conversation. Ingrid's work is a great example of how to organize a grassroots movement and influence key people in local government. She backs everything with data. This is how you make change. So are you ready? Let's get started.

Ingrid (00:52):

So my name's Ingrid Buday, and I am founder of No More Noise Toronto. I have had a variety of different backgrounds, and I have learned that you can only make good decisions from good data. And you only get good results from a good process. And so No More Noise Toronto collects data from both crowdsourced information, crowdsourced data points, and also through meters. And we also advocate for better processes in order to reduce noise in our cities.

Cary (01:18):

So what got you interested in tackling noise? It's a big area.

Ingrid (01:24):

It is a very big area, and I've learned, well, what got me interested in tackling noise was that I'm personally impacted by noise. And that was something that ...I've been living in the same place for 10 years. I used to be able to come home and enjoy my balcony and have maybe a nap in the sun in the afternoon. I lived between a highway and an arterial in the condo, but I could still do all those things. Then that started to change about four years ago, even pre-pandemic. And I was like, what's this change? I haven't changed. So my environment has changed. And it was the noise that was impacting me, kept me up at night, and basically reduced my overall quality of life and health. And so I started researching it and I learned that Toronto Public Health did a health study in 2017 called "How Loud Is Too Loud", and they had heat maps of noise, but they used averages. And averages over 24 hours don't include the peak noise events that were impacting me.

(02:25):

And what you can see on the graph behind me, that is what we actually live with in 24 hours. And so I thought, I need to learn more about this. So I bought a sound level meter. I also tried reporting the noise problems to 3 1 1 because we are told to call 3 1 1 for all of our complaints. And the process didn't work. I didn't feel that... they basically said, "thank you very much, we can't do anything, and we were closing your case." And so that added to my frustration and anxiety. So I took a GIS, a Geographical Information System mapping course with ESRI, which is one of the largest mapping companies in the world. And I saw that I could produce a survey that people could complete on their phones. It would put the location of the noise source, it would categorize the noise source, put time and date with it, and then that point that they hit "Submit" on then shows up on a map. And that created community and context and it kind of was, "oh, I'm not alone." And what I've learned is that we've been told for decades, you'll get used to the noise part of society. It's a sign of a growing economy. And the answer is "No. We don't get used to noise and it is not necessary." There's many noises in our environment that they don't need to be as loud or they don't need to be as frequent or they're actually illegal and shouldn't be present at all, such as motorcycles and modified mufflers.

Cary (03:55):

Yeah, interesting. Now you mentioned this organization, ESRI, and I'm wondering, did you have to build the app or was there an app that you could just use for people to participate in a survey and submit a decibel level?

Ingrid (04:09):

Yeah, great question. So ESRI has very sophisticated technology, which I do not use. I use a much easier, kind of more user-friendly version. I had never had a GIS. I love maps, but I never did GIS work before. So they actually have functionality that you can literally drag and drop to create a survey. So in that sense it was very accessible to me.

Cary (04:35):

So sort of an open-source situation, but it's not like you have to start from scratch knowing how to code the whole thing.

Ingrid (04:43):

Absolutely. But it's not open. You have to pay for licenses, you have to pay for subscriptions and that type of thing. Then the data I can choose to host to keep that private, or share it. And I share it, I share it with everyone.

Cary (04:57):

Approximately -- for anybody who might listen to this and wonder if they could do it in their own community -- can you share sort of a ballpark estimate of the costs involved in trying to do one of these on your own, in another city?

Ingrid (05:11):

Yeah, so the ESRI software functionality is available globally. So my "Not 311 Noise Report," people can submit in New York, in California, and I keep adding noise sources to it. I just added pickleball to it actually.

Cary (05:24):

Oh, really?

Ingrid (05:25):

I've heard a lot about pickleball lately.

Cary (05:28):

I have too, I've never played it, but I've heard that a whole bunch of people are just doing it. It's become the latest social craze and I've never even picked up a pickleball racket, if that's what you call it. So... amazing.

Ingrid (05:41):

Apparently the noise of pickleball is like, and they play very close together. So it's a high-impact, frequent, random noise. So back to your question though. So the app available or the survey is available globally, but in order for people to do that, it's a hundred and -- at least in Canadian dollars -- it's about 125 for a personal license. But as soon as you start to spread that out and work commercially in a way, then it goes up to close to a thousand dollars annually.

Cary (06:16):

That adds up a little bit.

Ingrid (06:17):

It does, yeah.

Cary (06:18):

So this data that you're collecting, how receptive have community members and city -- especially city officials -- been to your project and to the information that you are gathering?

Ingrid (06:31):

Well, my inspiration for this is actually somebody forwarded me an article from Arline Bronzaft, and how she collected data regarding children's learning from the quiet side of the school to the loud side of the school and how that impacted. And I thought, you see, this is where noise can be a very emotional argument because we get angry. Because we actually have... so Quiet Communities is another great organization in the US, and they call it "secondhand noise," similar to secondhand smoke. In that we are involuntarily exposed to a harm. And I really love that definition. And so this is where I thought I need to add data to this argument, because being angry wasn't helping me, certainly doesn't help the actual advocacy of having productive conversations with people. That doesn't happen when you're angry. So data is now the new language of noise, in a sense.

(07:30):

And so city officials... so first, the "Not 311" report created community. It created something that people could coalesce around because I was like, "well, how do I create community? Well, let's complain about something." And that kind of can work, in a good way. But that was then created a data set, which started the conversation. It's like, "oh, she's doing something different." So, what that did was I started collecting the "Not 311 Noise Report." I also started doing my sound level measurements at people's homes and validating what they were experiencing. They're like, "Oh, I'm not nuts because I'm angry because I keep getting these noise spikes at two and three in the morning and I can't get to sleep." So what that did was now created a community and we had the great fortune of having our noise bylaws under review, and that's where I've gotten some great advice from others on how to make a difference.

(08:24):

And somebody said to me, "Ingrid, you need to have people send emails and show up." People need to act in order for a difference to be made. Nothing changes unless somebody does something. And so that's where my goal was to empower people and equip people to do something. So on January 11th, when the noise bylaws were being reviewed by the committee in Toronto that is made up of city counselors, I had 40 people show up in Depew, and we sent over 500 emails in three days through an email campaign. And that went to every community member, went to the mayor, went to the person's own counselor, went to Toronto police services, went to the municipal licensing and standards. So this was a way of getting attention across a broad spectrum. And so that's what's happening is now city council is listening.

Cary (09:13):

And that was this January [2024] that this happened?

Ingrid (09:16):

Yeah.

Cary (09:16):

Okay.

Ingrid (09:17):

That is correct.

Cary (09:18):

Wow. Okay. Well, 40 people, that's a pretty good turnout, really. Sometimes it's hard to get even that many people anywhere, get 'em out to vote, anything. So it's great. By the way, because I don't know if Arline is listening in or might chime in, I also want to get, I just want to have a little soundbite where Arline introduces herself and her background, for anybody who doesn't know.

Arline (09:42):

I'm Arline Bronzaft, and Ingrid did refer to a study I did to demonstrate that children exposed to elevated train noise --compared to children on the quiet side -- were nearly a year behind in reading by the time they reached the sixth grade. The data for that study was published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. But I had been asked by a mother of a child in that class -- in one of the classes near the tracks -- to help the children. My publishing a paper was not sufficient. And so I worked with the community, with public officials, with the media, very important, and we were able to get the transit authority to test out a noise abatement technique on the elevated structure next to the school. And we got the Board of Ed to put acoustical tiles in the classrooms exposed to the noise. People always say, "how do you get two agencies like that in New York City to respond?"

(10:45):

I always use the word "miracle." But anyhow, the abatements were in place. And then I was asked by a public official to go back and find out if children did better in a quieter classroom. I collected the data -- Ingrid, remember data -- and the data showed that now that the classrooms were quieter, the children on both sides of the building were reading at the same level. Oh, you want to know when those studies were done? Over 40 years ago, 45 years ago, for the first study. But it was a start in my career on noise, essentially. I now was committed to trying to improve not only children's learning. I've done research on the effects of aircraft noise on people's health. Now my world is essentially consists of working with people internationally on trying to lower the decibel level. And I've been working with Ingrid. And so I now know that we can indeed lessen the noise. And when we do, we have a quieter, healthier society.

(11:51):

So in New York City, I do have a position I serve on Grow NYC, which is an agency focused primarily on healthier food and food markets. But we do have a noise section. Anyone in New York City with a noise problem can contact me through Grow NYC. It's a mayoral position, and I've served for six mayors. So it's nothing to do with politics, but I am always pleased to work with people like Ingrid. So now I work on noise issues, continue my research and advising and serving as an advisor to Quiet Communities, Right to Quiet in Canada. And it's just a pleasure to have met you, Cary. And people like Ingrid do make a difference, and I know she's going to be effective in educating people to the dangers of noise in Toronto, and I know hopefully to lessen it. Thank you.

Cary (12:51):

Thank you.

Ingrid (12:52):

Can I add a little story here?

Cary (12:54):

Yeah.

Ingrid (12:55):

Okay. So I am funded by donations and in order to lead up to the bylaw review, the company that I work with, they put me in touch with a media expert. And the media expert said "Ingrid, you have to have an event, and you have to draw people." And they were like, who can you think of? Well, Arline was the first person that came to mind. I was like, "oh, well that's Arline Bronzaft. "And he goes like, "can you get ahold of her?" And I was like, "get a hold of Arline. How do I get ahold of Arline? She's famous. She's my mentor." And so I used my network and I sent Arline an email, and then Arline Bronzaft called me. And I remember I was walking to the grocery store, I looked at my phone, I was like, "it's Arline. Oh my goodness."

(13:40):

And I was just so thrilled that someone of this caliber, of this wisdom, of this stature would call me. And it was just one of those things. And that's what I'm finding with the noise community in general. We're supporting each other. We all have our own little niches, and we all have our own little things. And whether it's amplified sound or motor vehicles or whatever, we understood the health impacts of noise are the same no matter what the noise source is. And that's our desire. And so just here, Arline and I are on this call together. We didn't know each other maybe three months ago. I think we talked for the first time right around Christmas. So this is what happens.

Cary (14:23):

I felt the same way when in the early days of Soundproofist, and I kept reading about Arline and I thought, "Boy, I would love to talk to her." And then one day I get an email and it's like the return address is Arline's. And I thought, "is this real or am I being spoofed? Did she really contact me? Oh my God." And so yeah, we've been in contact ever since and done podcasts together. And yeah, it is pretty amazing. I am humbled as well.

Arline (14:51):

Well, thank you both.

Cary (14:52):

Oh, sure. I'm kind of curious about, I assume that there are some cultural differences between Americans and Canadians that may be subtle, but I feel like in the United States, in some places, actually, certainly where I live, people aren't always receptive to the idea of curtailing noise because it's sort of an impingement on their assumed rights in their minds. "You're not going to tell me how to drive my car and how loud my car can be. I like the sound of that truck noise throttling that raw power. Don't you dare try to tell me, don't you put a noise camera up" or whatever. Because -- and I think during Covid, we started to see a little bit of this. How people reacted to the guidelines that were put up for us. Have you found that you have met a lot of resistance from individual citizens who feel like they don't want any restrictions put on them?

Ingrid (15:55):

Yes, but yet those are the people that, so for example, modified vehicles, sure, they may have a right to make noise. However, there are laws about emissions controls vehicles. And I actually had a meeting yesterday with someone who said, vehicles are signed off by engineers to work in a certain way. And those are then certified to come into, so in Canada, we have the noise standard 1106, which tests vehicles for 80 decibels. So when we modify that... so in Canada, that's the law federally. Then that vehicle goes on a truck and goes to a province, then provincial laws take over. And they say, "You shall not modify a vehicle. The exhaust system shall operate as it was initially intended." So that's a law, and that's a law for very good reasons. A noise, B, emissions C, you are now no longer using a vehicle as it is intended.

(16:55):

And that could be a safety hazard, that could be a health hazard, whatever may be. So these people that talk about their right, you may have a right to do that, but there's laws that prohibit that for the greater good. And that's where we're starting to lose this. And Arline Bronzaft is ...she talks about being respectful, being kind, being considerate, and that's what we're starting to lose. I think that's where the health impacts are actually our strongest, and cognitive. So whether that's physical health or our cognitive functioning or also equity. I have a friend who's blind, when I ask her how she feels navigating in a city, her word is "terrified." Because the louder it gets, it muffles her cues. And I actually have a "Hot Doc." So we have a documentary group up here called Hot Docs, and they actually did an eight-minute documentary on me regarding that. And they highlight her. Because people that have had acquired brain injuries, people that have lower no vision, they've had a stroke, or they're highly sensitive people, they are more impacted by noise than other people. And somebody I've got somebody in my group who has autism. And that really impacts and magnifies their symptoms. So you may think you have a right to make noise, but you do not have a right to impact harm involuntarily on other people, however that may be. Whether it's a leafblower, the leafblower noise was the worst noise…

Cary (18:29):

It's that low frequency.

Ingrid (18:31):

And so people don't have a right to harm, or I'm going to use the word ..."torture" others through sound.

Cary (18:38):

I was just going to ask you about leaf blowers actually, because certainly if you live in these sort of mixed-use kind of cities, I know where I live, it's not even that many leaves. I mean, you might have just a driveway and a garage or a tiny little patch of a backyard with a little patio on it. But the leafblowers will go on for a half hour, an hour, and they just walk around and they're still using the gasoline powered packs on their back. So even though there's been legislation passed in California that forbids the sale now of gasoline powered leafblowers, if you already had one your grandfathered in. And so there's been no abatement there in terms of those gardeners with their power toys. So again, it's kind of like there's enforcement, you have the law, you have then people that will voluntarily agree to comply with the law, and then you have the people who don't. And you have the enforcement issue. So how willing do you think are the Toronto city officials to actually -- it sounds like not just Toronto, but you said the provinces --to enforce the laws that were passed, for example, around vehicle emissions or vehicle noise or leafblowers?

Ingrid (19:57):

Yeah, and Arline and I have had conversations, and it's different in the states as it is for Canada, different jurisdictions. And so that's where it really comes to down to political will, and that's where at least, so we have a new mayor here. We had Mayor John Tory for I think eight years, and then we now have Mayor Chow, and she is a little bit more proactive. But we have a premier Doug Ford, and we had a program called Drive Clean where they actually did, you had your vehicle tested for emissions controls, there's the exhaust, and they stuck a hose on the back to see what came out of the end. Well, he took that away in 2019. And so he was basically, "oh, we're saving money for the little guy." So it was 126 bucks was the test, depending on the age of your car, you had to do it either annually or bi-annually or whatever.

(20:50):

Well, that was the last inspection of a vehicle. And that's when I started to notice the backfiring and I started to notice the loud mufflers. So our particular premier has done a lot for motor vehicle owners in the sense of making it easier. We now no longer have to renew our plates and all that other kind of stuff, but yet we still have in our Environmental Protection Act that noise is a pollutant. So this is where there's a marrying of municipal and provincial and political will between all of these. So apparently in Toronto we've been looking at noise cameras, and New York City has made a huge step forward in that. They've been buying these noise cameras. They've got 25 of them, five going in each borough. And I had the manufacturer of those cameras present here. I did a webinar with them in the beginning of February, or was that end of January?

(21:44):

End of January. And so our own municipal licensing and standards said the technology isn't where it needs to be yet. New York is buying 25 of them. So there's this political will and then this desire to not change. But also change is a continuum, and you have to guide people along and lead them little breadcrumbs along the way. And so we're starting that conversation, we're starting that dance, and so we've changed our noise bylaws, but now we need to hold them accountable and show that the bylaws, that the changes that have been made, did they reduce the noise? Did they not reduce the noise? Are complaints going up or complaints going down? We need to show the numbers because numbers, I don't know, maybe 50 years ago numbers didn't mean that much because people could just make decisions nilly willy. But now we're educated and now we know that we need a baseline and we need to show change in order to validate what direction we're going in.

Cary (22:40):

Yeah, interesting. One of the things I've noticed since when I got into noise issues -- and I also called this "Soundproofist" because I was also interested in solutions -- especially residential, was that in the beginning I just began using a decibel meter. Then I learned about the different types of decibels. So you've got C decibels, you've got A decibels... A decibels being the default. And then I began to really explore frequencies and looking for apps that tell you all of that information because one of the things I have found is that decimal levels alone don't tell you the whole story about noise. And that a really important detail in some of this is the frequency, the very low frequencies, because they travel so far and they go through solid structures. And these are sometimes the frequencies when you see these stories in the news about people bothered by "the hum" or other kinds of sounds, a lot of times it's a low-frequency sound.

(23:44):

So wondering if you have any kind of data on that, of how often that these noises that are being reported to you do the frequency of them. Are they low-frequency sound under 150 Hertz, for example, or a high frequency sound will also be extremely irritating. You have the car alarm or something I think is a pretty high frequency, but if you have, for example, a leafblower that's bothering people, but it's a block away. If you use the decibel meter, it may just look like it's 50 decibels. And a city official can say, but our... we're talking about 85 decibels for example. 85 decibels for eight hours or whatever the cutoff is in the United States right now. I think that's it for OSHA is if you're exposed for eight hours to 85 decibels or higher. But when you're bothered by something that's 50 decibels in the middle of the afternoon, let's say. not in the middle of the night where you probably have a lower [allowed] decibel range, how much traction can you get when somebody says, "But we saw the data here, and it says it's 50, What's the problem?”

Ingrid (24:50):

I would almost defer to Arline on answering that because I, like you have just been learning about sound. And there's an app called "Noise Capture." And what it does is, I don't know if you'll be able to see this, it has a spectrogram on it. And this is what helped me understand the visual picture of sound. So this is called Noise Capture and you can see that imprint there. And I was like, "wow, look at that." And so that is my extent of my knowledge with frequencies. I'm learning about it. But this was where I could see, and you can see when an airplane goes overhead, really low frequency right at the bottom. So this is how I'm starting to understand, and you can also see how motor vehicles cover a really wide range, but some of them have a really low hum, and that just, it's not loud, but boy does it bother you. And the bass beats. That's the other thing is with amplified sound, you're a part of the party. And you're not invited, and you're not even in the room, and you're still there. And so that's a big problem, especially in our mixed-use areas.

Cary (26:05):

If you think about some of the toys that we've gotten and the ways that technology has changed, and what started as stereo systems when I was young became multi-surround sound systems and it's increased the noise level a lot. While at the same time we have so many devices that can and are sometimes quieter, but when it comes to music, it's gotten louder over the years. Just the production of it has gotten louder. There's more bass in it. People buy headphones that have extra bass in them. I think the threshold is raised in terms of what kind of sound we hear and how powerful. And I know when I started doing this, it was said that the typical police officer when you make a noise complaint, will arrive with a decibel meter, but it's only a dBA meter, not even a dBC meter. And until people start understanding a little more just a lay person, you don't have to be a specialist. And I think that's what's really important about what you're doing too, is that when people participate, they're then engaging and they're noticing, as you did, "Oh, look at that." When do you choose to use your app that you developed versus the noise captures?

Ingrid (27:24):

It's called Noise Capture. It's only available on Android.

Cary (27:27):

Oh, okay.

Ingrid (27:29):

Yeah. And the NIOSH one is only available on iPhone. And so I'm finding that noise is kind of a marrying of all of these different technologies. And overall, finally, education is the biggest thing and making people aware of sound and the impacts of sound. And so for example, I work with a group called Civic Tech. And they are a group of techie people that want to use their skills for good, and that's why it's called Civic Tech for civics. I've been a presenter there for multiple times, and that's kind of been a place for this project to land. And they've been around for about 10 years, but one of their most successful projects is happening right now, where there's a group of people, and they are actually building their own sound-level meter and dBA. But they've got a little... so they're actually building the board and putting the microphone in, and all that stuff. And is it up to the standards of a dose meter or something like that?

(28:24):

And the answer is no, but what it is, is it's engaging people and getting people aware. And some people don't want me to be in their homes to do the sound level measurements that I do with my meters. But they are willing to get something that can then passively transmit data up to the cloud and then be available publicly. So that can be that awareness of noise, and then eventually we might get into frequency, we might get into other things. But frequency is kind of one of those, it's a little more esoteric, I think, and harder for people to understand. It's certainly taken me a little bit longer to understand that as well.

Cary (29:02):

Sure. I think also what we need, particularly for things like what you are doing where right now it's dependent on a human having a phone or something nearby to be able to initiate that. And just kind of like a camera, "oh, look at what's going on. Oh, let me pull out my video camera and get a picture of this and capture what's going on." Well, the same with the noise. So what I'm thinking is really what we all need is something that you can just run in the background and...like a Ring camera, without violating anyone's rights. You just want to capture that. Where you're talking about peaks versus averages during the day, rather than leave it up to a human to remember to use that app ,to have it just running. So you can just say, download the data every day and say, well, "what's Saturday compared to Wednesday?”

Ingrid (29:59):

And the thing is with noise is that it's transient. So try and get a video of a car with a modified muffler right off the side of the street. You can't, you can't get your phone out, activate the camera, do all of that. So you have to be set up in advance. And that's where some of the best measurements I have, I didn't know it was going to happen. I captured a demonstration from the 12th floor and it was like, so the measurements that I use with my convergence instruments, they run on power for three weeks. So I went to these people's homes. They have sirens is their main noise source, and their average over three weeks, day night, 24 hours is 70 decibels on average. They never ever get to 50. And that's because sirens, even on the 12th floor, register over a hundred decibels.

(30:44):

So I count the number, my software can count the number of noise peaks. And it was just like, there was one day it was like 700, and I'm like, "what is this?" So we went in, I'm able to, I'm doing this motion to kind of dig into the data. You can go into the graph and they were saying it was on a Sunday afternoon at six. What's that? And they were like, oh, there was a demonstration and that caused 700 -- at least -- noise spikes. And so it's like, "oh, I would've never known." So now I know what a demonstration looks like. I know what garbage pickup looks like, I know what a siren looks like, and it's identifying those patterns, but you have to be there in advance, otherwise you're too late.

Cary (31:22):

That's right. Yeah. And that's why I wish there was just something you could set and forget once in a while, so you didn't have to be so vigilant. If we had a way to create something that you could just run without using up all of the storage space on your portable device, or something that would send it to the cloud or something. And then you could just say, "okay, I don't need to stand in a window waiting for a demonstration or an ambulance." You just have it.

Ingrid (31:49):

And this is really cool. This is a hundred percent volunteer group. This is one of the most successful projects they have. The guy, Gabe, who started it, he said, "Ingrid, your project's techie, but it's not techie enough." And I'm like, "what do you mean it's not techie enough?" "No, we want to build things on those green boards. We want to attach the microphone, we want to..." And so now they're in this whole marketing phase, so they're building a documentation and all of that, and this is just…

Cary (32:12):

Oh, wow, wow, that's great.

Ingrid (32:15):

Oh yeah, it is really cool. And when it's ready, we will be launching that. And that's where he was like, well, I'm not sure how we're going to get it out. And I'm like, "You get it out through No More Noise Toronto.”

Cary (32:25):

Exactly. It'd be great if you could actually sell this to other cities, to other groups, because I think we're in need of this. There was somebody in New York City who was building something like this, and then he left the city.

Arline (32:41):

Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Tae Hong.

Cary (32:43):

Yeah. Yeah.

Arline (32:44):

Well, Tae Hong. Well, he came up with sensors that can be placed on your windowsill, which registers the time of day the plane flies over and how loud the plane is. So there are sensors that can give you time of day, loudness, just leave it on your window. And you're correct. Cary. Tae Hong had been working on this. I've been close to him on this, and he took a position out of town. I haven't heard from him lately.

Cary (33:16):

I also think that in a city like Toronto... for example, I think you said you were on the 14th floor or something like that, I think the buildings themselves are built more sturdily than, for example, something in California. And I'm wondering if you also have an influence at all on, or if you already have building codes that make the building quieter, and have soundproofing -- maybe as part of the insulation that's already required for such a cold city. You know, with extreme…

Ingrid (33:50):

We're getting warmer. Let me tell you.

Cary (33:53):

Does it? I guess so. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, you have cold winters and you probably have thicker walls. And you have more insulation, but is that enough when you have the noise outside?

Ingrid (34:05):

You raise a really good point. And I'm not up to the whole building code thing, and I certainly couldn't compare Toronto or Ontario versus California. But what seems to make a really big difference is the windows. And Arline, she had a great article on how to mitigate noise, and one of the biggest things is your windows. And I've noticed, at least in my measurements where I've done inside and outside, it's about five decibels per window pane. So if you only have one, then it's dropped by five decibels. If you have two, then it's by 10. But there's also different window grades and all that other stuff. But what I think is the biggest thing, at least in Toronto in regards to buildings, is the noise canyons that are being created because we are building taller. I mean, Toronto is known for tall and sprawl. It's either flat, or it's 40 stories.

(34:54):

So my building is 36 stories. They're now building 70 stories tall, but they're building them all on either side of an arterial street. So you've got all of these hard surfaces and they're all glass and concrete, which is perfect reflection. So that's where these people that are on the 12th floor with sirens, the counselor, I forwarded a graph and I'm like, they are constantly above the noise spikes that they have. And finally, I believe we should be able to sleep with the windows open because not only is that good for us, but there's people who don't have air conditioning. I have central air, thank goodness, but I can't enjoy my balcony. So it's about managing noise in the public space for the public space. And that's buildings need to do noise assessments, but it's only the noise they are emitting. They don't look at, here's a building that's already here. If we put a building here, this is the new building, then what is that going to do for the noise that's gets, there's none of those kind of studies. And so that's where paying more attention to the public space is I think, really important.

Cary (36:02):

Well, I think in Europe there is a requirement in any city of a hundred thousand people or more that they need to do a noise map like every, I don't know, five to seven years or something like that. And I think that they should be taken into account in city planning -- to model. Some of the software has the capability of modeling right now. What would happen if I had a 70-story building on this side of the street? And I did a short video about this, there was a free tool that you could play with online that some university started, and you could do something like, you could say, "I'm going to put a building here. Now I'm going to put a building here, or put a wall here." And then you can see what the decibel level is, and you can just drag it up and down.

(36:46):

And that's what people need to be doing when they build new structures. What can you do when you have existing buildings to mitigate some of this noise reflection on the things you have already, like would planting plants or ivy...? Or is there some perforated metal with soft surface sbehind it that could absorb some of the car noise and some of the street noise that's ratcheting up? And I really wish there were more people engaged in not just regulation because people are resistant to that, or it's impossible sometimes to change, but to find solutions to the structures that we have already.

Ingrid (37:26):

I think it has to be both ways. So there are some things that you can have soft facades. I think you can actually, so at the outside of a building, you can have an air gap that then has another facade that's softer, so that has more air pockets that absorbs the sound. Basically. I actually just read an article on why it's quiet when the snow falls, it's because there's all those air pockets in the fresh snow and that absorbs the sound.

(37:50):

So if you mimic that, so I have an underpass close by me if they were to spray that with some sort of substance so that the sound would be absorbed and not bounce off. So there is that. But then I'm also a big believer in you mitigate at the source, and it's like when people think "Ingrid, why don't you sleep with earplugs?" Do you want to sleep with earplugs 365 days of the year? When I take them out, my ears are sweaty. We actually breathe through our ears. It's gross. That's why I'm a real advocate for open windows and mitigate at the source, but we do need to come at it from the other side. Absolutely.

Cary (38:25):

Well, when you can't change a law, or maybe you live somewhere where it's difficult for your police department to prioritize that over other issues that are possibly going on that they consider to be more important ...than many people would. And we have problems here with mass retail theft right now. The police are not going to be chasing after someone with a loud car when they've got other issues that are bigger in their minds.

Ingrid (38:52):

And to me, that's where technology comes in. That's how we make it simple and binary. Either you are or you aren’t.

Cary (38:59):

Right, right. I think that's great. So going forward for the rest of 2024, what are your key goals this year? Out of the world of noise issues, what are the things that you hope to accomplish this year?

Ingrid (39:12):

Well, I just had a good conversation with someone about that. Arline is lovely to be helping me and helping me understand where we need to go. When I started this, I had no idea if noise would have legs or not. And it does, and we now have an active membership base and it's growing. So it's where do we want to go? So my key focuses are to work with Toronto Police Services, the city, Toronto Public Health, to be collaborative with them and talk about noise reduction and talk about improving the reporting process. And that's been... I've had very favorable responses that way. I want to equip and engage my membership and organize them in a way. So I've created a calendar of when the committees are meeting, and what committees would apply to what noise sources. Because like planning and housing, that applies to noise for exactly some of the things we were talking about today.

(40:04):

So if people have noise issues inside their home, they need to show up and talk about it. So I'm helping that organization do that. And then the other thing is data collaboration and data collection. And so that's where my Not 311 noise report, maybe it needs to evolve to something called a "community noise report." Maybe it's something that I can work in collaboration with others. But I also need to look at how, right now, No More Noise Toronto is Ingrid. And Ingrid can't do everything, and Ingrid doesn't want to do everything. I can't be the expert on everything. So I'm looking to bring people in some way, shape, or form that will allow people, because it's all volunteer, we need to grow and we need to grow smart. Because to me, how you start is also how you finish. And so I want to make sure that... that's why I had a great chat with Arline on what she thinks, how she thinks that No More Noise Toronto should develop in order to not get burnt out, to not get tired, and to implement effective change.

Cary (41:01):

Well, if there's a way I can help in any way, let me know. Also, how do people get involved? How can we tell people to get involved with your effort?

Ingrid (41:11):

Thank you. I never get to that point sometimes myself. So how people can get involved is I determine my membership by my newsletter. So I have a website called No More Noise Toronto.com. And on there is a way to sign up for the newsletter called "Noise News." And I try and make it engaging and fun. So that's where people can be kept informed. They can also do a three, "Not 311" noise report from anywhere in the world. And they can contact me through info at No More Noise Toronto dot com. And that's how I'm building the network and engaging people. And we're starting in Toronto, but looking at how we can engage further. I had a webinar with Jamie Banks from Quiet Communities with a group from California called Pickleball Noise Relief. So noise is an issue. While we are in different areas, it impacts us all the same. So I encourage people to have a look at my website, reach out, say hello, and become a part of the... Join the choir, shall we say.

Cary (42:20):

I'd like to thank Ingrid Buday and Arline Bronzaft for joining us in this podcast. If you are interested in supporting or joining No More Noise Toronto, I'll put a link on the Soundproofist website, or you can just Google them. I hope to see Ingrid's community work and data mapping move beyond Toronto and into other cities. There's a lot we can learn from each other. Thanks for listening and for more information about noise, acoustics and soundproofing, visit soundproofist.com.