Ask Arline: Episode 1 - Neighbor noise

New York City psychologist and noise expert Dr. Arline Bronzaft answers some questions about neighbor noise.  In the first episode of this mini-series from Soundproofist, Dr. Bronzaft answers common concerns about how to deal with neighbors who stomp their feet overhead, noise from romping children while you're trying to work from home, how to delicately approach neighbors with loud bedroom activities when you're trying to sleep, what to do if criminal activity is happening in your building with lots of people  coming and going, and neighbors with incessantly barking dogs. Listeners are encouraged to submit their own noise questions to Dr. Bronzaft for future episodes.

Transcript

Cary (00:00):
Welcome to this first episode of "Ask Arline," a podcast where your questions about noise get answered by an experienced, award-winning psychologist and noise expert, Dr. Arline Bronzaft. Arline Bronzaft is well-known for her groundbreaking study about the impact of train noise on student learning in New York City in the 1970s. Since then, she's become a leading noise expert and she's often interviewed or quoted by major news media.

Cary (00:32):
Soundproofist also interviewed her for our podcast in 2019. Many New Yorkers might already know that they can submit noise questions to Dr. Bronzaft through the GrowNYC website. But as she said today, she's also gotten involved in noise issues outside of New York.

Arline (00:51):
I've been doing this for a long, long time. You wanna know how long?

Cary (00:51):
How long?

Arline (00:56):
35 years. So do you think I've gotten every question under the sun about noise and then people of course call me from, you know, I deal with people in other states: Montana, Wyoming, Texas, Louisiana, Florida...name it. Vermont. Well, in those states, I'm asked as a noise expert in cases. So people would say "What noise is in Wyoming?'

You're 62 years old. You just moved into a senior residence community. You're finally gonna have this lovely house and this wonderful community. And then you just find out that the building a racetrack, a motocross racetrack next to your home. How will you feel about that? You bring in action, right?

Cary (01:45):
What happened?

Arline (01:46):
What happened? They did not build it. The lawsuit prevailed. The judge was terrific. He looked at and read everything. I said about the adverse effects of noise on people's health. And he ruled that noise would be harmful to these people. Okay. Wyoming. The same thing in Montana. So when people say New York City may be noisy, right? Philadelphia... I say Montana, Wyoming, New Zealand. I mean, yes. I had a case in New Zealand, but I'm trying to tell you, you don't know where the noise will follow you. My case in Texas in a small town, the people sold their home and their property to a venue that held weddings there. Parties into the late... early morning hours. So here you are. You think your next-door neighbor is gonna be you know, living in a quiet area...

Cary (02:45):
Closed at nighttime, right? Yeah.

Arline (02:47):
How would you like that happening to you? With all these cars being started at one in the morning. Okay. New Orleans. Hey, how could you say anything about music and New Orleans? It's everything for them. But what if you're living above a venue who keeps the door open? The person keeps the door open and the music just flows out. I had to testify at the city council in New Orleans on how these loud sounds affected people. And they listened. Surprisingly, I was a little nervous about doing that in New Orleans. So what I'm gonna tell you, it's all over. And the people who've experienced one noise... let's say I've helped them and they moved to another neighborhood. And then I hear from them again. And they said, "We can't believe it. There were no planes flying over that we knew about."  So I tell people, you never know, wherever you move, the noise could follow you.

Cary (03:51):
Nothing is permanent.

Arline (03:53):
And so, yes, I'm kept busy with noise. GrowNYC is superb. Do you know the noise section of GrowNYC? It's outstanding. Because it not only gives you the publications and the podcasts -- yours is listed -- but it also tells you what you can do about it. And of course the last line there is, "if you have a problem, contact Arline Bronzaft."

Cary (04:24):
Now through this podcast, you can benefit from her [Arline's] knowledge as well. So let's get started with some questions about neighbor noise. Ready?

Arline (04:33):
Neighbor noise. Yes. All right.

Cary (04:34):
Okay. So question number one, "My neighbor doesn't have carpeting in his apartment, and it sounds like he's stomping back and forth all the time. What can I do?"

Arline (04:44):
Well in New York City, we have the "warranty of habitability" section of people's leases. And that's a state lease. And warranty of habitability is part of the lease. And that guarantees people reasonable quiet in their apartments. I use the word "reasonable." If you had read something that said, "my neighbor's grandchild comes over once in two months and drops a toy," I'd probably say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you." But if it's stomping, there should be quiet above you. And people get that by having proper padding and carpeting on the floors. And that's why laws are important. But laws have to be adhered to, have to be enforced. And so I would say to this neighbor, "have you spoken to the managing agent...or even earlier, have you spoken to your neighbor to make an inquiry?" And do that politely. But when you go to the managing agent -- or if it's a co-op or condo, or you go to the chair of the board -- what you're really asking for is reasonable quiet in your apartment.

And to get that, people above need to have appropriate padding and carpeting on the floor. And in return, I always ask the person, "do you have that in your apartment? So the person below does not hear you." The other thing I do suggest in buildings, and some of them have taken me up on this -- my own building has  -- is that you drop a letter to all the residents and you stipulate the requirements of living in apartments that are not just quieter. But you shouldn't leave garbage in front of your door. Cleanliness is important. And so very often managing agents do send out letters to indicate how people can live together in a much more comfortable way for all. And being somewhat quieter is listed on that letter. And they have done that in a number of apartment buildings in New York City.

Cary (07:14):
Oh, that's good. So basically then you have sort of a local authority, which is the manager of a building.

Arline (07:20):
Right.

Cary (07:21):
Do you have any suggestions for -- let's say when you mentioned politely talking to your neighbor first -- do you have any suggestions for words that could either be trigger words or words that might open the conversation up so that the neighbor is more amenable to your request?

Arline (07:39):
You always do it politely. And sometimes it might turn out that your neighbor just moved in. That happened to me personally. All of a sudden I started hearing stomping above me, and it turned out it was a new neighbor. And I still have the note that she wrote. And she said "in a few weeks, we'll have all the carpeting and everything else will be in place and it should be alright." And she wasn't angry. I said it politely. I said, "oh, thank you very much." And then she actually put it in writing. She said, "I'm writing you the note. And this is when you should expect it to be quieter." So if you can just, you know, approach someone, but always do it politely. Let me tell you something you should NOT do... that some people do. They take a broom and start hitting the ceiling in retribution.

You do not do that. You come to the table with clean hands. You do not inflict pain on another person because that person inflicted pain on you. So in most of the cases I've dealt with, and as I told you, I've had about 35 years of experience in New York City. Most of the cases get resolved amicably and people are not angry. Are there some cases that I can't resolve? Yes. Because there are always gonna be people that are gonna be difficult. But a strong board, a strong managing agent, a strong landlord should understand that noise inflicts on people's health and wellbeing. And all of us are entitled to some quiet. Let me add another thing. People say, "well, you live in New York City and you know, people are rushing through the streets and they have to hear the horn honking in the construction and all the loudness."

Arline (09:34):
And I tell them, "you know what, as far as a New Yorker is concerned, when she or he closes that door to the apartment, guess what? That person expects it to be quiet." You know why New Yorkers walk so quickly through the streets? And sometimes you can't stop them, but when you stop for directions and they stop, they're very polite. The reason they may not stop is they're trying to get out of that situation and away from the noise. So recognize that noise is a health hazard and also say to yourself, "am I being quiet and respectful?" And that's the word I've used. I just wrote a paper that dealt with noise and respect. When a person makes noise and imposes harm on another, that's also saying "I don't care about you, and I don't care about other people." To me being considerate and being somewhat quieter in your apartment -- and I did raise two children in an apartment -- is being respectful. And I think respect is key.

Cary (10:44):
So I have another question for you. Get this one. "When my next-door neighbors have sex, their bed bangs against the common wall in our apartments. And it's driving me crazy. This is very awkward. How can I approach them?"

Arline (10:58):
That was a real problem that I had to deal with my next-door neighbor -- mine. While having sex, the bed was banging against my wall in the early morning hours. Fortunately, I knew the woman who cleaned their apartment. So I approached her when we were in the laundry room and said, "you know, occasionally the bed gets banged up against the wall. And I think beside my hearing the noise, I think it's gonna chip the paint at it might cause damage to the wall. So that if you could approach and say, 'you know, maybe you were cleaning one late night or something, and you moved your bed. And the bed is banging against the wall. Be careful because your bed may end up causing some damage to the paint. So why not move it one inch or two inches away from the wall?' So not only will I not hear the banging, but you are protecting your wall, which could get chipped if this continues." Is that polite?

Cary (12:05):
Very polite ...and very surreptitious. Well done.

Arline (12:10):
Thank you.

Cary (12:10):
Without anybody getting upset about it. It's kind of a win-win, right? I like that. I've got a new question. "I've been working from home ever since COVID started. And my neighbor has small children and I hear them all the time. I used to be in an office during the day, so I never heard the kids, but now I hear them while I'm trying to get my work done. Should I talk to the parents?"

Arline (12:33):
Well, this again, I've had a number of these cases. Your neighbor must have been a very polite person while you were working. Because when you came home at six or at 5:30, you didn't hear the children, which meant she was probably cognizant of the fact that someone below her was coming back from work and her children were told, "Hey, keep it down." If you didn't hear it at night -- again, she was probably cognizant. But she thought, you know, at one o'clock or two o'clock in the afternoon, you're not there. And so the children were running around. Now, you're there. And little kids are accustomed to running around, but I think generally a person that has not allowed the children to intrude on your peace and quiet after 5:30 in the evening or at seven in the morning was probably cognizant of a potential impact.

Arline (13:34):
And what I think you should do is just say politely, "I understand I was generally at work. I know that children enjoy running around, but can you in some way help me out because now I'm working at home, and there has to be a bit of restraint." And I think people would be considerate. Let me give you another side of this. My grandchildren came to my home. I took care of my grandchildren when they were very young. And my grandson was about three and a half. He came into my apartment. He took off his shoes, but he was running around. And I said, "mm-mm, you can't do that. People live downstairs. You've gotta walk nicely." So one day we're at his home. He lives in the private home in Queens. And he starts running around. I said, "Matt, you're running around." He says, "grandma, no one lives underneath. That's just our downstairs area. In your house, people live underneath. Here it's okay, grandma. I could do it." Which showed this three-and-a-half year old child understood that when he was in my house, he had to just walk around. He still played. At his house, he knew there was no one living there. So the other point I'd like to make is that children can understand this, and children should be taught to respect other people earlier. And I've also written a book on child care. So anyone wants to question that, look at my book.

Cary (15:14):
I'd like to add one more thing to this, also. Just based on some of my own observations ...is that a lot of times people think if they take their shoes off -- and the shoes do make an impact noise on the floor -- but sometimes walking barefoot can also produce a lot of noise. Because people walk with their heel bones down and that's like a giant baseball bat going into the flooring. So, you know, just taking shoes off, alone... but what I have found is actually wearing slippers with soft soles makes it very difficult for you to walk heels first. And so that's another suggestion also, but it's probably harder to implement with children.

Arline (15:56):
The point I wanted to make is how my three-and-a-half year old grandson understood the difference. He was aware of it. And let me add that if you go to New York City's Department of Environmental Protection, we have something called the "Sound and Noise Module." It's basically curricula from the lowest grades through high school, educating children on the dangers of noise, how to protect themselves from noise, and the wonder and beauty of quiet. So that in New York City, we have curricula that can be introduced to schools. By the way, you don't have to live in New York City. Anyone can access the curricula because I think children -- with my grandson being an example, and I don't think he was an exception -- children should know from early on about sound and how sound impacts some other people. So it's on the Department of Environmental Protection website and it's called "Sound and Noise Module."

Cary (17:06):
Great. And I think that's really helpful because sometimes the parents themselves aren't very aware of sound and noise. So you can't always rely on parenting to convey that to children. If the parents themselves are unaware of some of these issues.

Arline (17:24):
And you know what? Children do go home and talk to the parents about what they learn. And hopefully we'll have the young children telling their parents how noise can harm them.

Cary (17:37):
Yeah. So, here's a new one. "I think there's drug dealing going on in my apartment building. I hear people going in and out of the upstairs apartment all night long and it can get very noisy. I don't wanna confront the visitors or my neighbor. What should I do?"

Arline (17:54):
Now, that's a tough one. Considering I've been around for 35 years, I've dealt with drugs. I've dealt with prostitution. I've dealt with crime. My mother used to get very nervous. She said, "I thought you were dealing with noise. What are you getting involved in?" And so I got a call from an older woman who just told me what you just said, that there was car parked near her apartment. And they would have signaling like they would toot the horn. And then there was climbing quickly up the stairs. And then shortly after, down the stairs. And this was keeping her awake. I had no clue. So I asked to speak to her aide, who said to me in this very soft voice, even though she was talking on the telephone -- and I had to listen carefully -- that there was drug dealing upstairs. And she was frightened and didn't want to say anything to anyone.

Arline (18:57):
And that particular case, I contacted the precinct. And I must say the precinct was wonderful. Told them the car gets parked to check it out. And the precinct did check it out. And the people stopped. In fact, they moved. And then I got a call from the landlord who thanked me profusely and said, "I heard from the neighbor that it was you that helped us. And I will do everything to make sure that neighbor has quiet." So this is a touchy one, but I was on a call yesterday with the Department of Environmental Protection and the police department in the Bronx, a precinct from the Bronx. And the police I know in New York City are aware of this. I don't know about the other cities around the country. I think that's a tricky one. I wouldn't approach the neighbor. As my mother said, she was nervous that I wouldn't approach the house or even go listen to it.

Arline (20:06):
And if it's an apartment building, you might talk to the managing agent and talk about that. "Why should people be running up and down stairs late at night?" was how I phrased it. There's this noise that's going on. By the way, I had similar case. When I dealt with prostitution, they were running up and down at late hours and it turned out to be prostitution. So I think you have to be cautious. I think if there's a managing agent and if there are other people living in your building, you might inquire of the neighbor: "Have you been hearing this climbing up and down at all hours of night? Does that make sense?" Your neighbor said, "you know, I was thinking about that also." So approach it from the perspective that it's going up and downstairs, what could that be? And if there are a few people that approach a landlord or managing agent, I'm hoping that no one is that scared, because that gets a little... scary. It was for the building with the prostitution. They were a little nervous about that. So here I am, I'm working on noise, and I'm dealing with prostitution and drugs. And you will never understand how nervous my mother was because she thought her daughter was just a professor doing research ..and yes, helping people with noise. She never thought I was getting into those areas.

Cary (21:41):
Well, luckily it all worked out.

Arline (21:44):
It did. I'd have to say the Brooklyn precinct was wonderful in Bensonhurst.

Cary (21:51):
Oh, that's great. Just one more question for today. And it's another neighbor question of course. "My neighbor has started working in an office again and leaves a barking dog home alone all day and is driving me crazy. Any suggestions?"

Arline (22:08):
That's happening, by the way. And I think landlords and managing agents will be sympathetic to that one. And I don't think your neighbor's the only one, because if it's a barking dog, if it's an apartment building the person upstairs ...next door...and this is one in which you would again, approach a managing agent approach a landlord. If you were friendly with the person, but sometimes you live in the apartment building and you don't know your neighbors that well. I think a barking dog all day long is a legitimate noise complaint. If you said a dog barks once as you walk through the door at five o'clock...mmm, that would be questionable. But if the dog is barking a great deal. Let me also make another comment again. I think buildings would be wise to distribute information on how all residents can live in a more harmonious, respectful way.

Arline (23:13):
And when you list noise, do mention that barking dogs are inappropriate. And maybe if you're keeping a bird in the house -- in your house -- listening to that might be inappropriate. So I think a request of a dog barking during the day would be a reasonable one. That's the other thing, if people are reasonable in their requests about toning down the sounds, I think for the most part, they'll get a positive response and the problem will get corrected. And that's...and then always remember, quiet starts with you. You have to be also respectful. And hopefully it'll catch on. And then we can all live in a respectful manner and in a quieter, healthier way as well.

Cary (24:11):
Thank you.

Arline (24:12):
Thank you!

Cary (24:15):
Arline, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. And if any of you have noise questions, feel free to send them to askarline [at] soundproofist.com. That's Arline with an "i." A-S-K-A-R-L-I-N-E. This podcast is a production of soundproofist.com. Thanks for listening. And we look forward to hearing your questions.