In this second episode of the "Ask Arline" series, New York City psychologist and noise expert Dr. Arline Bronzaft answers some questions about urban environmental noise. We cover cars with exceptionally loud engines to people blasting loudspeakers late at night, and bars and clubs with outdoor noise that keeps people awake. Dr. Bronzaft shares some of the solutions that get used in New York, and which might be applicable to other cities as well.
In this second episode of the "Ask Arline" series, New York City psychologist and noise expert Dr. Arline Bronzaft answers some questions about urban environmental noise. We cover cars with exceptionally loud engines to people blasting loudspeakers late at night, and bars and clubs with outdoor noise that keeps people awake. Dr. Bronzaft shares some of the solutions that get used in New York, and which might be applicable to other cities as well.
Cary (00:00):
This is episode two of "Ask Arline," where your questions about noise get answered by an award-winning psychologist and noise expert, Dr. Arline Bronzaft. Arline Bronzaft is well-known for her groundbreaking study on the impact of noise on learning and New York City School children. And she's also an advisor about noise issues through GrowNYC. Just Google her name, and you'll learn a whole lot more about her extensive experience. So today we're going to cover some questions about environmental noise, specifically urban environments. Arline, I know some of your experience is specific to New York City, but I think you have some good advice on best practices for other cities too. Ready?
Arline (00:45):
Go ahead.
Cary (00:46):
All right. So "there are lots of loud cars drag racing through my neighborhood, and their engines sound like they've been modified to make them even louder. I'm concerned about the noise and also the possibility of someone getting hit by a speeding car. What can I do?"
Arline (01:02):
That that's a problem that's occurring in a number of cities, and we're gonna assume that the cities have ordinances that don't permit cars to exceed a sound level that is indeed disturbing. So that's the assumption. Well, a new procedure has been put in place. It's called "noise cameras." A camera is set up and the camera will register the decibel level of the car passing by and also copy the license plate. And if it indeed is louder than it should be, a violation will be issued. New York City has started that program in a pilot study, as have they in the UK and in Paris. It's being tested out. So far in New York City, they have been catching people who are going through the corners with sounds that exceed the acceptable levels. And they're issuing violations. Now, It's only a pilot study. And they've just done it so far with one camera.
Arline (02:18):
Interestingly enough, when they took the camera away, people began to go through it. When the camera was there, people recognized it, and they were not exceeding the decibel levels. So we're gonna have to put more cameras up. This is gonna have to be a regular procedure. And the City of New York's Department of environmental protection is preparing a report on the data it has collected... to see if indeed we can now monitor these loud cars by issuing violations when a camera captures the license plate and the volume. And this is something for the future, and I'm looking forward to getting that report, which I'm going to share with all the people I know.
Cary (03:09):
Great. I assume this is also motorcycles, which tend to be often louder than cars.
Arline (03:15):
So far it's been cars.
Cary (03:16):
It's only cars. OK.
Arline (03:18):
We could do it with motorcycles. The idea is, hey, we have to use modern tech to capture sound levels. And I am very pleased to see that cities in countries around the world are beginning to catch on, that we're gonna have to do something to stop these loud sounds. And when I talk to people in New York City, I know one neighborhood, I work very closely in upper Manhattan. People are going crazy over this.
Cary (03:49):
Oh, I bet.
Arline (03:50):
All right? So let's hope that technology will allow us to curb a violation that is definitely intrusive on the health and well-being of people.
Cary (04:01):
Yeah, it's interesting also because based on what I hear outside my apartment, we have loud cars. People who maybe don't necessarily have loud cars, but they rev their engines a lot. So they accelerate very hard, harder than they need to accelerate.
Arline (04:17):
Well, you know, we could do it for that too. Let them know now that we have technology being developed to capture loud cars, and I think people may then rethink whether they should engage in this kind of behavior.
Cary (04:34):
I'm very curious to hear how this will progress. I'm sure you'll keep us informed.
Arline (04:39):
I will let you know.
Cary (04:42):
So, question number two is also about a certain type of noise that comes from cars. And the question is, "I live in the boroughs. Sometimes late at night, people park cars and play loud music through their loudspeakers. It's very loud, but I don't even know where it's coming from exactly. I know there must be a noise ordinance, but how can it be enforced when you don't even know where the car is parked?"
Arline (05:06):
All right. This is a complaint that I'm hearing readily in New York City that cars are being parked. You're not quite sure which block. It could be the next block. How do you capture these loud vehicles and in some way stop it? Well, let me give you a technique that New York City used years ago when Mayor Giuliani was mayor. The precincts had what were called "quality of life cars." So that the precincts had a quality of life car that went through the neighborhood to see what was going on with respect to noise. And if such a car would be going through a neighborhood where a car was parked and blasting music, then a violation could have been issued. It was one car for let's say the precinct, but people would not know which block the patrol car would be on. It could be your block, it could be another block.
Arline (06:09):
You're not sure, you don't know where it's gonna be. So not knowing whether or not you will be issued violation tended to deter people from engaging in behavior that would lead to such violations. So now we have 2022, and our precincts are beginning to rethink what they did years ago with quality of life cars. Now remember, the police have to designate one of the cars to quality-of-life issues. It has to be strictly to capture the sounds in neighborhoods that are disturbing people, particularly at night. And so we will probably also have another test to see if such a car could deter the behavior of having cars parked and disturbing people so they can't sleep. But again, we're thinking about how to do this. And it hasn't been done yet. It was done when Giuliani was mayor. That was a long time ago. We're talking 20 years ago. But I think cities should explore that. Can you designate a quality of life car that will browse through a neighborhood to issue violations to people who are disturbing the quiet that individuals need at night?
Cary (07:36):
Yeah, that's great. That's interesting. And that brings to mind two questions that I thought of were points from what you just told me. And the first is, I think this speaks to -- and I don't know how many cities have it -- sort of a precinct-based system where you have police assigned to specific neighborhoods, not just citywide, but much more based in the community. I know we have it in San Francisco where we have like Northern Station, Mission Station, and so on. And probably Chicago and a few other cities have neighborhood based police, but that may not be true in all cities. So it seems like once you have it designated for a specific neighborhood, it's much easier to cover. And the second, which is a question, my second point is I'm wondering if they are carrying any kind of noise meters with them. So when they issue a violation, even though it's perfectly obvious that the music is blasting, do they actually need to have data on how loud is it?
Arline (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, they had, yeah, they had police then did have noise meters and they were able to, you know, use these to assess the level of sounds. Oh, data are important. But what I'm suggesting here is that they're are ways to do things to lessen noise pollution. Having an instrument to measure the decibel level, to prove that it did exceed the ordinance is important. What I'm trying to ask police across the country is to explore the possibility of designating quality-of-life cars that will be able to keep neighborhoods a lot quieter. And start it with pilot studies. We have to start with pilot studies. And if they are successful, the data demonstrate you're getting individuals who are disobeying the law, then you move further. What we need to do is explore how we can quiet things in neighborhoods, not ignore it. Remember, laws get passed and laws are wonderful, but there's a word that I always use when I talk about laws.
Arline (09:54):
They must be enforced. And if cities have ordinances that forbid certain types of behavior that deal with loud sounds and noises, that's not sufficient. A city has not carried out its obligation if it does not enforce the laws on the book. And let me say one thing further, if certain laws are not enforced, does this not give a license not to enforce other laws as well? And that's not a good message. People have to know we have ordinances and our agencies that are charged with carrying out the laws indeed do it. And that's a complaint I get from not just New York City, other cities. Enforcement. And if we don't have enforcement, then why are we passing laws?
Cary (10:47):
I do like the concept of the quality of life because I do think it's important to separate laws that have to do with the comfort and safety and health of every citizen versus... like, crimes, like muggings, and that sort of thing. There's a difference. But yet both of them, in my opinion, are worth enforcing. But they don't necessarily have to be enforced by the same type of approach. And that's where I think this quality of life comes in as like taking more of a community-based approach, a non, hopefully not-very-confrontational approach that can change the issue without a huge confrontation or jail or something like that.
Arline (11:30):
I mean, you could always say the first one is a warning. I mean, once you have an ordinance on the sell the books, then you could decide how they'll be enforced and you can find the most effective way to cease these behaviors that are so intrusive on the health and well-being of people.
Cary (11:50):
Yeah, I agree. And the third one, coincidentally, is also about a kind of noise that happens in the city. And this question: "there are bars and clubs near my neighborhood, and sometimes they leave their doors open or the customers open them. Naturally, a lot of the noise escapes out of the club and into our homes. Should I approach the club owner or the city?"
Arline (12:13):
Well, that depends on, you know, your ability to approach someone in a non-confrontational way. I had a case actually, that dealt with music coming out of open doors. And it was in New Orleans. And all we came up with is "if you keep the doors closed, the people in the neighborhood won't get disturbed." And you know how important music is to the people in New Orleans. But if you're living above one of these music venues and the door is open, it would impact on your health. So we came up with a simple solution: close the doors. We're not asking for the bars and the restaurants to shut down. What we are saying is be respectful to the people who live in the neighborhood. And they don't have to hear your music. Now, let me tell you why this has been a worse problem recently in New York City.
Arline (13:13):
Because of Covid, we have these shacks that are outside of the restaurants. And sometimes the music has been made loud so the people in the shacks or the people sitting outside can hear the music. Other neighborhoods do not do that. I happen to live in a neighborhood in New York City that has many of these outdoor shacks... that we now sit and have dinner, and we do not hear music. So this has become a particular problem because of Covid. And New York City now has a committee to assess whether or not it will go forward with the shacks as Covid is lessening. But people have said, "wait a moment, the music, are you going to curtail that?" You know, it seems reasonable. We're not saying that the venue shut down. Now, if you can't approach, you know, the venue... in New York City, we have a specific agency that deals with many of the noise problems.
Arline (14:16):
It's not just the New York City Police Department. We may be somewhat unique in that we have a Department of Environmental Protection, which has its own agents. They're not police officers. So we have an agency with its own agents that can go out and issue violations. Now, I think that's a big plus. So I would ask people who are listening to go to the New York City Department of Environmental Protection website and look at the New York City Noise Code. That a city saw noise to be such a problem that it designated a specific agency to deal with many of the noises, I think is a real plus. Police officers can deal with other noises. It's not just the Department of Environmental Protection. So the other people that should get involved are your public officials. If I'm living in a city, and there's a bar and that bar has loud music playing to one, two in the morning -- I should be able to ask my city public official to assist me.
Arline (15:26):
You know, when it comes to passing laws and ordinances, it's public officials who pass them. And my position is if you pass them, then it's really up to you to make sure that they're enforced. So it's not just that you can approach the restaurant owner. You may have to approach the local precinct, but you can also approach a public official. The other thing that carries more weight is if it's not just one person that's being impacted. And if it's a loud music venue, if it's a bar, I don't think it's one person. And in numbers, there's strength. So if a group of people could get together, either approach the owner first, go to the city DP, recognize that numbers count, and public officials are much more likely to take on a problem when they see it affects more of their constituents. So that's the other thing I would advise: work with other people, because it's not just you that is being affected, they're being affected.
Arline (16:33):
And I think when you look at the solutions I've discussed today, these aren't just things that I hypothesized about. I -- remember -- serve on the board of Grow NYC in New York City. People can go to our website and look at the noise section. And you will see that at the very end, after we talk about the effects of noise and what you can do, it says, if you have a noise problem in New York City, contact Dr. Bronzaft. So I've been contacted by a lot of people. I don't have a perfect track record. I have not resolved all the noise complaints of people who've come to me. But we've done quite well. Because I think people who are affected by noise are so disturbed by it. I just mentioned to you earlier, I got a call yesterday from Philadelphia about a noise problem. And the reporter who called me said, the people are saying "noise is driving us crazy."
Arline (17:33):
Just listen to that phrase, "the noise that is driving me crazy." The stress that noise creates may not yet lead to a cardiovascular disorder that some studies have shown. But it diminishes your quality of life. And that's why we have to reduce the noise. I think the suggestions I've given you in response to the questions were reasonable. We didn't say shut down the venue. I've never said, "tell your children not to walk across the floor." Just do it quietly. So if you look at the suggestions, people who are concerned about noise have made, you'll see they're reasonable. And if we follow these suggestions, not only will the individual feel healthier and feel better, the society benefits from it. Because what it reflects is respect. If you care about your neighbors, you will understand not to inflict harm on them.
Cary (18:35):
I agree. Thank you so much, Arline.
Arline (18:38):
You're welcome.
Cary (18:39):
All right, well, we'll see you in another episode and I look forward to answering more questions with you.
Arline (18:47):
Well, let me thank you because I think what you've done, Cary, is you've highlighted the necessity to lower the decibel level. And that's so important. With all due respect to the people who do the research -- and I'm one of them -- my studies on the effects of noise on children's learning and quality of life have been published. But I really do think people like you using the media to distribute the knowledge we've accumulated through these studies to demonstrate the noise as harmful is critical. And I'm hoping that some of the suggestions I've made will be employed by the people listening to this podcast. And if they wanna complain to me, they can. Thank you.
Cary (19:33):
And if any of you have noise questions, feel free to send them to askarline@soundproofist.com. That's Arline with an "i". This podcast is a production of soundproofist.com. Thanks for listening, and we look forward to hearing your questions.